Chapter Twelve: The Intermediate Person

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome to Lessons in Tanya, chapter 12. Get ready to plunge deep with us today into some really fascinating ideas about our inner lives. We're looking at the different levels of spiritual states a person can inhabit according to the source text we're exploring. [00:00:14] Speaker B: It's quite a journey, really, into the architecture of the soul. This work, it lays out such a profound map for understanding those internal battles and, you know, the victories that everyone experiences to some degree. [00:00:26] Speaker A: Absolutely. And in previous deep dives, we've touched on the two extremes described in this text. On one end, you have the completely righteous person, Right? [00:00:36] Speaker B: That's the state where the good inclination achieves, well, total victory, to the point where it essentially removes or transforms the negative inclination entirely. It's described as complete inner harmony. Negative impulses just don't really arise in the same way. [00:00:51] Speaker A: A very high level, a state of profound inner peace and alignment as this text defines it. [00:00:56] Speaker B: That's one pole of the spectrum. Yes. [00:00:57] Speaker A: And then at the other pole, you have the wicked person. [00:01:00] Speaker B: That's where the negative inclination, unfortunately, takes over, leading to actions that, well, miss the mark, leading to sin. [00:01:07] Speaker A: Their outward behavior is dictated by those negative impulses. [00:01:11] Speaker B: Exactly. [00:01:12] Speaker A: So while those two levels define the absolute ends of the spectrum, today we're diving into the state that, frankly, feels maybe a lot more relevant and perhaps attainable for most people. We're talking about the intermediate person. [00:01:26] Speaker B: That's right. The state described as being between the completely righteous and the wicked. [00:01:30] Speaker A: And defining this state is presented as incredibly important in the source material. [00:01:35] Speaker B: Yes, because it's described not as some, you know, rare mystical level achieved only by a select few saints, but as a level that anyone can reach and maintain through conscious effort. [00:01:46] Speaker A: So understanding it give you a practical path for personal growth. A concrete goal. [00:01:51] Speaker B: Precisely. A concrete, achievable goal in your spiritual service. [00:01:54] Speaker A: So the big question we're tackling in this deep dive is what exactly defines this intermediate state? You hear intermediate, and you might picture someone who is, you know, kind of average. The common thought, maybe they try to be good, do good deeds sometimes, maybe they slip up in sin sometimes. But overall, perhaps slightly more good than bad. Is it just a simple mix, like a spiritual 50, 50 split? [00:02:17] Speaker B: Right? Like balancing the scales? [00:02:19] Speaker A: What does the internal world of this person really look like according to this profound text? [00:02:24] Speaker B: And this is exactly where the source material gives us a definition that is, well, perhaps quite surprising. It really goes against that common understanding you just described. It makes it crystal clear that the intermediate state is not about balancing good and bad actions in some kind of cosmic Ledger. It's something much more precise, much more demanding in one sense, and yet also deeply insightful about the true nature of our inner struggle. [00:02:49] Speaker A: Okay, let's really unpack this. As we mentioned, we're focusing on a foundational text that explores the nature of the soul and how we serve the divine. We're specifically looking at one particular chapter here that provides this incredibly detailed definition of the intermediate person. [00:03:04] Speaker B: That's our focus and our mission in this deep dive is to thoroughly explore the specific characteristics of this intermediate state as presented right here in this chapter. We want to extract the key points that define it both for one's inner life and, you know, how one acts in the world. We want to understand the mechanics of it. [00:03:23] Speaker A: Okay, let's jump right in then. Defining the intermediate person, starting with the core distinction the Source makes right away. What does it say is the defining characteristic of their practical conduct? What do they do? [00:03:35] Speaker B: The Source is incredibly clear and it's quite striking on this point. Right from the start. It states that the intermediate person's practical conduct, meaning their outward expressions in thought, their speech and their action, is always dictated solely by the good inclination. [00:03:50] Speaker A: Always? [00:03:51] Speaker B: Always. When it comes to actually doing things, saying things, or engaging in conscious, willful thinking, the good inclination always has the upper hand. It's in control. [00:04:00] Speaker A: Wow. Okay. Always. That feels like a very high bar already. Maybe higher than that initial idea of just being average. [00:04:07] Speaker B: It is. The text uses very strong language here. It says they never allow themselves to be dominated by the negative inclination. Not even for the shortest duration, not even for a moment, not even briefly. No. And it explicitly states unequivocally that they never think, speak, or act in a sinful manner. [00:04:25] Speaker A: Wow. So in terms of their outward behavior, their actions, their words, their deliberate thoughts, they are, in a sense, flawless. They don't sin. [00:04:35] Speaker B: Yes, that's precisely the definition provided in the Source. The Source uses this analogy of garments for the ways the soul expresses itself in the physical world. These are thought, spirit, speech, and action. In the intermediate person, only the garments of the divine soul, sought, speech and action aligned with divine guidance in the commandments, are ever used. The garments of the negative inclination, which would be, you know, forbidden thought, speech, or action, are never worn, so to speak. They're never put on. [00:05:01] Speaker A: Okay, this is where it gets really interesting and like you said, maybe surprising for many of us because we might have that common understanding of intermediate as someone who, well, they try hard, maybe slip up sometimes, does good deeds more often than bad, but isn't perfect. [00:05:17] Speaker B: Exactly. That's the intuitive understanding for many people, I think. But the source material explicitly refutes that notion right away. It goes on to make a very strong statement, almost to preempt that common misconception. It says the intermediate person has never committed any transgression, nor will they ever transgress in this state. [00:05:37] Speaker A: Never. Does that mean they live their entire lives without ever sinning? That seems incredibly difficult. Almost implying they were born at this high level or something. [00:05:45] Speaker B: That's a really important point of clarification, and the text itself anticipates that question because it does sound extreme. It doesn't necessarily mean they never sinned at any point in their life before reaching this particular state. I mean, concepts like repentance, turning back, they exist for a reason. What it means is that in their state of being an intermediate person, from the moment they attain this level, this specific spiritual standing, and for as long as they maintain it, they have no history of sin within that state. [00:06:15] Speaker A: I see. [00:06:15] Speaker B: And their spiritual level is such that sin is simply precluded. It won't happen regardless of the circumstances they might face. [00:06:22] Speaker A: So even if they're tempted by things that maybe trip them up in the past or face new challenges. [00:06:28] Speaker B: Correct. Whether it's old temptations or new trials. Old. While they are in the state, they will not succumb. Sin is prevented. [00:06:34] Speaker A: Ah, okay. So it's about the present state of being, a level of commitment and inner control where sin is simply not happening and it's actively prevented from happening, even under pressure or temptation. [00:06:45] Speaker B: Precisely. The term wicked person, the source says, has never applied to them, not even for a moment throughout their life as an intermediate person. This really establishes a very, very high standard for their practical conduct, their words, and their conscious, deliberate choices. [00:07:01] Speaker A: Outwardly perfect, consciously perfect in adhering to divine guidance. [00:07:05] Speaker B: That's the standard set by the text for this state. Yes. [00:07:08] Speaker A: So just to make sure we're absolutely clear before moving on, step one in defining the intermediate person according to this source, is that their outward life, actions, speech, conscious thought, is completely in line with divine guidance. No sin ever while they are in this state. That's the practical side. [00:07:27] Speaker B: Correct. You could say the battle for outward expression is completely won, while temptation might arise internally. And we'll get to that. It is absolutely prevented from ever translating into a forbidden thought, word or deed. [00:07:38] Speaker A: Which leads us perfectly into understanding the inner landscape where the struggle still exists. Okay, so if they never sin in practice, if their outward actions and conscious thoughts are always aligned with the good inclination, does that mean the negative inclination is gone entirely Vanished, like it is for that completely righteous person we discussed. [00:07:57] Speaker B: And this is exactly where the critical nuance lies. This is the key difference that defines the intermediate state according to the Source. No, the negative inclination is definitely not gone. It is very much present and active. [00:08:11] Speaker A: So where is this struggle happening then? If it's not showing up in actions or words or deliberate thoughts, the battleground. [00:08:18] Speaker B: According to the Source, shifts inward. It's in the inner being, specifically within the faculties of the souls, their intellectual capacities, their emotional capacities. [00:08:28] Speaker A: Oh, at an inner core, yes. [00:08:30] Speaker B: With respect to these core faculties, the divine soul does not have complete, undisputed dominance over the negative inclination. The negative inclination remains powerful enough internally to arise desires, particularly desires for physical matters, for worldly pleasures. [00:08:46] Speaker A: So the desire is still there, potent and active inside, even though the action based on it never happens. [00:08:52] Speaker B: Exactly right. The text uses this really helpful analogy of the body being like a small city. And both the good inclination and the negative inclination want to control and rule over this city. [00:09:02] Speaker A: Makes sense. [00:09:03] Speaker B: In the intermediate person, the negative inclination never gets enough power to actually conquer this small city and make it sin. [00:09:11] Speaker A: Through its garments, the forbidden thoughts, speech, action. [00:09:16] Speaker B: Right. Those outward expressions, those garments are subdued. The negative inclination does not prevail in the brain causing sinful thoughts. It doesn't prevail in the mouth causing forbidden speech, or in the other organs causing forbidden actions. [00:09:29] Speaker A: But you said the negative inclination's core isn't dominated, that the divine soul's essence doesn't have complete sovereignty there. [00:09:36] Speaker B: Yes, precisely. While the divine soul successfully controls the expression and the conscious, willful thought, the essence or core of the divine soul does not have that undisputed sovereignty over the small city in terms of totally eliminating or fundamentally changing the negative inclination's presence and power at its root. [00:09:54] Speaker A: Okay. [00:09:55] Speaker B: The faculties of the negative inclination, its core drives, still exercise some control internally by awakening desires for worldly pleasures in the heart. [00:10:03] Speaker A: And these desires, even if they aren't. [00:10:05] Speaker B: Acted upon outwardly, they can cause unwanted thoughts related to these matters to enter the mind. These thoughts kind of bubble up from the heart to the mind, driven by that underlying desire. [00:10:16] Speaker A: Okay, so the picture emerging is someone who is constantly battling, or at least feeling the presence and the pull of negative desires inside and experiencing unwanted thoughts rising up into their mind. But they consistently and completely win the war for their external behavior and the conscious, deliberate direction of their thoughts. Is that it? [00:10:36] Speaker B: That's precisely the definition presented. The struggle is very real. It's ongoing within their emotions and in those initial impulses of thought. But they maintain an absolute, consistent hold on their actions and their intentional thoughts, preventing them from ever aligning with the negative inclinations, desires. [00:10:53] Speaker A: This constant state brings us to understanding specific times when this internal dynamic might shift, even temporarily. Section 3 covers the state during prayer, a temporary dominion. The Source mentions specific times when the faculties of the divine soul do hold undisputed sovereignty even over the inner landscape. What times are those? [00:11:12] Speaker B: The Source specifically points to certain prayer times. These are described as particularly opportune, elevated times for spiritual ascent and connection. [00:11:22] Speaker A: And what happens internally for the intermediate person during these dedicated times of prayer? How does the soul engage? What's going on? [00:11:30] Speaker B: Well, during these specific prayer times, the intermediate person actively connects their intellectual faculties, their wisdom, understanding, knowledge, to the infinite being. It's not just reciting words by rote. They meditate deeply, intently on the greatness of the Creator, on the divine reality itself. [00:11:46] Speaker A: So a real intellectual engagement? [00:11:48] Speaker B: Very much so. And what's the result of this intense intellectual and spiritual focus during prayer, this meditation, this focused engagement of the intellect on the divine? It actively arises a burning love for the Creator and the heart. [00:12:00] Speaker A: Burning love? [00:12:02] Speaker B: Yes. And it's specifically described as being in the right part of the heart, which the text associates with the divine soul. And this intensely aroused love then naturally leads to a strong desire, a desire to connect to the divine by fulfilling divine guidance and the commandments, but not just out of obligation or fear, but specifically out of love generated by that contemplation. [00:12:25] Speaker A: So the prayer experience described here is much more than just a ritual. It's an active intellectual process sparking a profound emotional response. A deep love for the divine. [00:12:35] Speaker B: Exactly. It's a dedicated time to engage the deepest parts of their soul, elevating both mind and heart. And the Source explains how this intensely aroused love directly impacts that negative inclination that's usually present. [00:12:47] Speaker A: How so? [00:12:47] Speaker B: During this state of prayer, the negative force that resides in the left part of the heart, that's where the negative inclination is primarily seated. According to. According to this model, it gets subjected to and effectively nullified. It's nullified before this powerful, revealed goodness, this burning love of God that's spreading from the intellect into the heart. [00:13:05] Speaker A: Nullified? Does that mean it's completely gone during the prayer? Like, poof. [00:13:08] Speaker B: During that specific time of intense, focused prayer, yes. It's rendered inactive. The Source states clearly that during this time, the intermediate person's negative inclination is inactive. They feel no inclination for physical pleasures whatsoever. [00:13:24] Speaker A: Really? None at all? [00:13:25] Speaker B: None at all. For that duration, the core negative desire is subdued, silenced by the overwhelming presence of divine love generated through that contemplation. So during prayer, the good inclination is the undisputed sovereign over the intermediate person's inner faculties, both intellect and emotion. [00:13:45] Speaker A: That's a powerful image of prayer, and maybe even transformative. It makes you think about those moments in life, you know, when you're completely absorbed in something deeply meaningful, something higher than your usual day to day worries or petty concerns. Maybe creating art or solving a really complex problem, or experiencing something truly awe inspiring in nature. Yeah, in those moments, typical desires or negative thoughts just don't seem to have a hold on you. [00:14:10] Speaker B: Exactly. They fade into the background. [00:14:12] Speaker A: So the Source is describing prayer as the specific, dedicated way to actively harness that power of the soul to create such a state of inner harmony and elevation. [00:14:22] Speaker B: Precisely. It's a time consciously set aside to elevate the mind and heart, creating a spiritual environment where that usual inner struggle is temporarily and completely resolved through the dominance of the divine soul's love and wisdom. [00:14:35] Speaker A: Fascinating. But as Section 4 covers, the state after prayer, the return of desire, the power of mind, this intense elevated state achieved during prayer, where the negative inclination is nullified, it doesn't last indefinitely, does it? You can't just stay like that. [00:14:49] Speaker B: No, the Source is very clear on this. After that period of intense prayer concludes, that elevated spiritual state departs. The special revealed illumination and the intense feeling of love generated during that time, they subside. They return to a more hidden, less overtly felt state. [00:15:05] Speaker A: And what happens to the negative inclination then? The one that was nullified during prayer? Does it stay quiet? [00:15:10] Speaker B: No. The Source explains that the evil of the negative inclination in the heart reawakens. It returns to its usual state of potency. The intermediate person once again feels a desire for worldly pleasures and delights. The Source really emphasizes that the core evil of the negative inclination remains undiminished at its root level. [00:15:30] Speaker A: So prayer didn't eradicate it. [00:15:32] Speaker B: Exactly. It didn't eradicate it. It simply subjected and nullified its active expression and feeling for that specific duration. But the root is still there. [00:15:42] Speaker A: So the intermediate person goes from feeling no inclination for physical pleasure during the peak of prayer to feeling it again afterward. That must be quite a jarring shift internally. [00:15:51] Speaker B: Yes, you'd imagine so. And this is where the definition of the intermediate person becomes most practical and maybe most demanding in their daily life outside of prayer. How do they manage this returning desire, which is still powerful at its core, without sinning? Given that it's active again, this seems. [00:16:07] Speaker A: Like the crucial ongoing challenge of the intermediate state. Then the day to day reality? [00:16:11] Speaker B: Absolutely. And this is where the key lies back in that initial definition we started with. Because the negative inclination did not achieve sole authority in the body, meaning it never dictated their actions, words, or conscious, willful thoughts, it still cannot implement its renewed desire after prayer. [00:16:29] Speaker A: It can't translate it into action, not. [00:16:31] Speaker B: Into deed, not into speech, and not into actual conscious thought. The good inclination stemming from the divine soul residing in the brain retains control over that whole realm of expression and deliberate mental focus. [00:16:44] Speaker A: What does the Source mean specifically by actual thought in this context? How is that different? [00:16:50] Speaker B: That's a great question. The Source defines actual thought here as deliberately concentrating one's attention on worldly pleasures, with the specific aim of devising ways to satisfy the heart's lust or worldly cravings. [00:17:02] Speaker A: So planning how to get what you want. [00:17:03] Speaker B: Basically, it's deliberate, willful focus on something negative or inappropriate. The intermediate person prevents this kind of focused plan. Negative thinking. They don't go there. [00:17:13] Speaker A: But earlier you mentioned that unwanted thoughts can still rise after prayer automatically. How does that fit in if they're preventing actual thought? [00:17:21] Speaker B: This is a vital distinction the Source makes, and it's really central to understanding the intermediate state. The desires for worldly pleasures that reawaken after prayer. Because the core of the negative inclination is still there, these desires will cause thoughts related to these matters to rise from the heart to the mind. [00:17:38] Speaker A: Okay, so the thoughts just pop up? [00:17:39] Speaker B: Yes, they rise automatically as a consequence of the underlying desire. And these thoughts, in their initial arising, are to a degree, beyond the intermediate person's immediate control. In their origin, the divine soul doesn't dominate the very rising of every single impulse or associated thought. They just appear. [00:17:57] Speaker A: Okay, so an unwanted thought appears maybe about something improper or just a worldly distraction, when they should be focused on something holy or important. How does the intermediate person handle that unwanted, unbidden thought? What do they do? [00:18:11] Speaker B: This is where the power of conscious control comes right back in. While the thought may rise unbidden, the intermediate person can and does control their conscious, willful thought. As soon as they realize a thought is negative or inappropriate or just arising from the negative inclination, they immediately dismiss it. [00:18:30] Speaker A: Instantly. [00:18:31] Speaker B: Instantly. They avert their mind from it. They refuse to dwell on it, refuse to accept it, willingly refuse to engage with it, or to start planning how to act on it, shut it down. [00:18:41] Speaker A: So the test isn't whether a negative thought appears in your mind automatically? [00:18:45] Speaker B: No. [00:18:45] Speaker A: But whether you engage with it willingly, whether you allow it to become actual thought. [00:18:50] Speaker B: Precisely. The Source states very clearly that willingly entertaining or Indulging in such thoughts, allowing them to become actual thought, would make one temporarily wicked. And since the intermediate person is defined as someone who is never wicked, not even for a moment, while in that state, they necessarily must refuse to willingly entertain evil thoughts. The involuntary rising of the thought is not the sin here. The willful dwelling upon it, accepting it, planning based on it, that would be the sin which they prevent. [00:19:22] Speaker A: This explains the paradox Then it makes sense now. They aren't free from negative desires or even from intrusive, unwanted negative thoughts stemming from those desires. [00:19:30] Speaker B: Correct. [00:19:31] Speaker A: But they maintain absolute, consistent control over their actions and the deliberate direction of their conscious mental focus. [00:19:38] Speaker B: That's it. The battle is constant at the level of feelings and involuntary thought impulses rising up. But the divine soul is consistently victorious in controlling the outward expression and the inner conscious will and attention. [00:19:49] Speaker A: Which brings us to the really practical. How are they able to do this? How is the intermediate person able to keep those powerful returning desires in check? How do they control their conscious thought so effectively, dismissing unwanted thoughts instantly, even when the desire itself is still strong internally after prayer? The innate supremacy of mind over heart. [00:20:14] Speaker B: The Source provides a fundamental principle here, sort of the bedrock that underlies this capacity. It states simply, the mind rules over the heart. [00:20:22] Speaker A: The mind rules the heart. Is that something they've trained themselves to do through immense effort? Or is it just how people are fundamentally built? [00:20:29] Speaker B: The Source says this is by virtue of man's innately created nature. [00:20:33] Speaker A: Innate. So it's built in. [00:20:34] Speaker B: It's a built in inherent capacity that every human being possesses. Part of our design, you could say. [00:20:39] Speaker A: That's a powerful idea. We are inherently wired, then, for our intellect, our mind, to be able to guide, control, and ultimately rule over our emotions and desires which reside in the heart. According to this text, yes. [00:20:52] Speaker B: The concept laid out is that every person is created with this ability. Using the power of will that resides in their mind, they can restrain themselves. They can control the drive and the pull of their heart's desires. The mind's understanding and its will are inherently powerful enough to prevent the heart's desires from finding expression not just in deed and word, but crucially, even in conscious deliberate thought. [00:21:16] Speaker A: Especially when the mind sees the downside. [00:21:18] Speaker B: Especially when the mind understands the negative consequences or the foolishness or, you know, the actual evil involved in those actions or thoughts. That understanding fuels the mind's ability to control. [00:21:29] Speaker A: So the mind doesn't just understand, it can actively redirect attention and prevent action based on that understanding. [00:21:36] Speaker B: Yes. The Source says the mind, through its will can completely divert attention and action away from what the heart craves and redirect it towards the exact opposite direction if necessary. It has the power to choose and to redirect focus and energy. [00:21:49] Speaker A: And this power of the mind over the heart, this innate ability, it's true, even based on simple non spiritual logic or self interest like this is bad for me, so I won't do it. [00:21:59] Speaker B: The Source emphasizes that yes, this innate ability of the mind over the heart is powerful enough even when the motives are just, you know, simple logic, reason or basic self interest. The mind's rational understanding alone possesses sufficient strength to steer one's attention and actions away from the heart's craving. If the mind perceives that craving as detrimental in some way, okay. [00:22:18] Speaker A: But is it even more effective when the motivation is spiritual? When the understanding is of divine good and evil? [00:22:26] Speaker B: Oh, absolutely. The Source highlights that this mind over heart ability is particularly effective and strong when the motivation is holiness. When the mind's understanding is connected to divine wisdom. When the mind knows with clarity that, say, lustful thoughts or negative desires are detrimental and sinful, and that thoughts and actions aligned with divine guidance are good and holy, and one seeks to divert attention and actions specifically with the goal and motive of holiness, then the mind's will is particularly potent and effective in mastering the heart and controlling both thoughts and actions. [00:23:00] Speaker A: So the intermediate person isn't just relying on sheer willpower in a vacuum. They are leveraging this innate human capacity for the mind to rule the heart. And they are strengthening that capacity significantly by connecting their understanding and their will to divine wisdom and holy intentions. [00:23:15] Speaker B: Precisely. They are utilizing a fundamental God given aspect of human nature, but directing it consciously and consistently towards divine service and adherence to divine guidance. [00:23:25] Speaker A: To illustrate this point further about the power of wisdom and holiness, the Source uses an interesting analogy. This is section 6, the analogy of wisdom, folly, light and darkness. It quotes a verse then I saw that wisdom surpasses folly as light surpasses darkness. Now, at first glance, that seems like a very straightforward comparison, right? Wisdom is obviously better than folly and light is obviously better than darkness. Pretty clear. [00:23:54] Speaker B: It seems obvious enough. [00:23:55] Speaker A: What's the deeper point the Source is trying to make by linking these two pairs? White used an analogy here. Both sides of the comparison seem like equally clear examples of good versus bad. What's the extra insight? [00:24:07] Speaker B: That's exactly the question the Source anticipates and addresses. It unpacks the analogy to reveal something quite surprising specifically about the nature of the light and darkness comparison that holds the key. It points out that even a little bit of physical light has the power to banish a great deal of physical darkness. [00:24:23] Speaker A: That's very true. You light even a single candle in a completely dark room, and it dispels the darkness in a pretty wide area. [00:24:30] Speaker B: Exactly. And crucially, the Source notes, this banishment happens automatically and inevitably. There's no apparent effort or battle on the part of the light. The darkness doesn't, you know, fight back against the light, right? [00:24:43] Speaker A: It just disappears. [00:24:44] Speaker B: It simply ceases to exist where the light is present. The light doesn't need to struggle or actively push the darkness away. Its mere presence causes the darkness to disappear. [00:24:53] Speaker A: Ah, okay. So the analogy isn't just about which one is better or stronger in a general sense. It's about the nature of the interaction between the two forces. Light inherently distills darkness automatically. [00:25:05] Speaker B: Exactly. And this principle is then applied back to wisdom and folly, and by extension to holiness and evil, or the divine soul and the negative inclination. In the same way that light automatically banishes darkness, wisdom, which represents holiness and the power of the divine soul, is superior to folly, which represents evil and the negative inclination. [00:25:26] Speaker A: And the Source explicitly connects the desires stirred by the animal soul, the negative inclination, to this idea of folly. It calls them folly. [00:25:34] Speaker B: Yes. The text specifically mentions that wise teachers in earlier generations described the desires and impulses stirred by the animal's soul, the negative inclination, as folly, which aligns perfectly with the analogy. Just as physical darkness is automatically banished by physical light, the spiritual folly of the negative inclination is automatically banished by spiritual wisdom and holiness, but specifically in the realm of expression and conscious thought. [00:26:02] Speaker A: So it's not necessarily a constant, exhausting, head to head struggle at the deepest core level in terms of what gets expressed outwardly. [00:26:09] Speaker B: Well, not in the sense of the wisdom needing to constantly fight against the folly to prevent it from manifesting. The analogy suggests something more inherent. The Source explains the mechanism. The wisdom of the divine soul residing in the brain inherently desires to rule alone in the body and express itself through its garments, thought, speech, action aligned with divine guidance. And this active presence and will of wisdom automatically pushes away the folly of the negative inclination in the heart from achieving expression in those realms. It doesn't need to wage a pitched battle to prevent the manifestation. The mere presence and active will of the divine soul's wisdom in controlling action and deliberate thought is enough to banish the folly of desire from being able to express itself outwardly or consciously. [00:26:56] Speaker A: So the natural supremacy of mind over heart and holiness over evil, in this specific sense, controlling manifestation, that's what allows the divine soul's desire to control the lustful and negative desires and prevent them from ever being expressed in action or conscious, willful thought. [00:27:12] Speaker B: That seems to be the idea. [00:27:14] Speaker A: It's almost like the wisdom actively occupies the space of action and conscious thought, and the folly cannot exist in that space simultaneously, much like darkness cannot exist where light is present. It's an active control that leverages this inherent superiority. [00:27:27] Speaker B: It's definitely an act of control. Yes, the intermediate person must actively choose to direct their mind and will. That's key. But the analogy highlights that the nature of wisdom and holiness is such that it inherently pushes away folly and evil from the sphere of expression and conscious will, much like light dispels darkness without the light having to actively fight it. The potential for folly, the negative desire might still be lurking there in the heart, but it cannot coexist with the active focus, will and expression of wisdom and holiness in controlling one's actions and deliberate thoughts. [00:28:01] Speaker A: This brings us back full circle, then, to the initial puzzle. Section 7 is titled reconfirming why Not Completely Righteous? If the intermediate person's divine soul dictates all their practical conduct, they never sin in thought, speech, or action. And their wisdom can even banish folly automatically. In terms of expression, why are they not called completely righteous? What is the definitive difference between these two states according to the Source? [00:28:24] Speaker B: Let's go back for a second to the definition of the completely righteous person from earlier chapters. Remember, that state is where the good inclination vanquishes the evil entirely, to the extent of eradicating it, transforming it, removing it from its root right. [00:28:40] Speaker A: The opponent is gone or fundamentally changed at its core, no longer a factor in the same way. [00:28:46] Speaker B: Exactly. The negative inclination's essence isn't really present or active in the same way. Now compare that to the intermediate person as we've just defined them. The Source clearly articulates the difference. The dominance of the divine soul in the intermediate person is limited. It's limited to the expressions thought, speech and action. Only in these outward and conscious realms does the divine soul have complete and consistent control. [00:29:10] Speaker A: But not the core essence. It doesn't reach that deep. [00:29:13] Speaker B: No. The essence and core of the divine soul does not dominate, vanquish, or eradicate. The essence and core of the negative inclination. The negative inclination's core, its power, potential for stirring desire and folly, remains present and potent in the heart. It's still there. [00:29:27] Speaker A: So even after that intense prayer experience we talked about, where the negative inclination was temporarily nullified and inactive, it comes back because its core wasn't Removed or transformed. [00:29:38] Speaker B: Yes, precisely. The Source explains that after prayer, when that burning, revealed love and elevated illumination isn't actively felt in the same intense way, the negative inclination's core remains and essentially undisturbed in its place in the heart. The folly of the negative impulse, the desire for worldly things, whether permitted items craved for their own sake rather than for a higher purpose or g forbid, prohibited things, can reveal itself again in the heart. It craves and stirs desires as though the prayer hadn't happened in terms of the core's continued presence and potential. [00:30:11] Speaker A: So the desire is still there, powerful, and it can surface emotionally and cause unwanted thoughts to rise. And even if it doesn't lead to action or willful, engaged thought, it's a constant potential for struggle, mubbling under the surface. [00:30:24] Speaker B: Correct. The negative inclination still exists and desires at its core level in the intermediate person, especially when the intense, temporary focus of prayer or elevated study subsides. It wasn't eradicated at its root. It was temporarily subdued during prayer and is constantly being overcome in the realm of action and conscious thought afterward. [00:30:43] Speaker A: And that fundamental difference, the core presence versus core eradication. That's the key distinction from the completely righteous person. [00:30:51] Speaker B: Yes. In the completely righteous person, according to the Source, the essence of the negative inclination itself has been eradicated or transformed at its root. So these desires and their associated folly simply do not arise in the same way or with the same power and persistence. The battle for the intermediate person is ongoing. It must be consistently won through effort and conscious control. While for the completely righteous person, that particular battle is over because the antagonist has been removed or fundamentally changed. [00:31:20] Speaker A: Okay, so in summary, for the listener, the intermediate person has perfect, flawless control over their actions, their words, and their conscious, willful thoughts. This is achieved through consistent effort, relying on the innate power of the mind to rule the heart and leveraging the inherent ability of holiness wisdom to push away folly in the realm of expression. [00:31:44] Speaker B: Right. [00:31:44] Speaker A: But the battle or the presence of the negative desire is still very much there internally at the emotional and faculty level. Particularly when they're not in a state of elevated spiritual focus like prayer, they constantly overcome it by preventing its expression and deliberate engagement, rather than having removed it from its root. [00:32:01] Speaker B: That is a very accurate and concise summary of the state as defined by the Source. It's a state of constant vigilance and consistent victory in the realm of external conduct and intentional thought. But importantly, it is not a state where the internal antagonist, the negative inclination, has been completely vanquished or eradicated from its core. [00:32:18] Speaker A: This makes a Lot of sense. And it feels like a much more dynamic and perhaps relatable description of the inner struggle that many people experience in their attempts at spiritual growth. It gives a precise definition to that ongoing effort. [00:32:32] Speaker B: And it's presented as the level attainable by everyone precisely because it acknowledges and accounts for the continued presence of. Of the negative inclination, which is, let's face it, a reality for most people throughout their lives. [00:32:45] Speaker A: Let's shift gears slightly now. Does this detailed definition of the intermediate person, this whole internal dynamic we've been discussing, does it apply only to one's relationship with the Divine, or does it also extend to feelings and interactions with other people? Intermediate person and relationships between people? [00:33:01] Speaker B: Oh, absolutely. According to the Source, it applies equally to relationships with others. The very same internal principle and mechanism hold true in how the intermediate person relates to their fellow human beings. [00:33:12] Speaker A: How does that manifest? What does it look like in practice, say, in interpersonal situations? [00:33:18] Speaker B: Well, the intermediate person, just as they don't allow negative impulses towards the Divine or for worldly pleasures to dictate their actions or thoughts, they will not allow any negative feelings or impulses towards another person to express themselves in thoughts, speech or action. [00:33:34] Speaker A: What kinds of negative feelings are we talking about in this context? The Source gives examples. [00:33:39] Speaker B: Yes, it gives specific examples like animosity, hatred, jealousy, anger, holding grudges, seeking revenge. You know, similar negative emotions that might rise from the heart towards someone else, perhaps someone who has wronged them or slighted them. [00:33:53] Speaker A: And how does the intermediate person handle these powerful negative emotions when they arise internally? Do they just suppress them, push them down? [00:34:01] Speaker B: No, it's more active than suppression. Immediately, when such feelings rise from the heart towards the mind, the intermediate person refuses to accept them into their mind and will. Just like with other unwanted thoughts stemming from the negative inclination, they dismiss them instantly. Their mind, guided by the Divine soul and its understanding of proper conduct towards others, prevails over and dominates the feelings in their heart. [00:34:22] Speaker A: So they exercise that power of mind over heart again. [00:34:25] Speaker B: Exactly. To ensure those feelings do not take root in their conscious thought or influence their will or actions. [00:34:31] Speaker A: And what do they do instead? If they're preventing those negative feelings from dictating their response, what actions do they take, does the Source specify? [00:34:39] Speaker B: It does, and it's quite demanding here, actually. It says their mind, directed by wisdom and the dictates of the Divine soul, directs them to do the exact opposite of what the negative feelings might dictate. [00:34:51] Speaker A: The exact opposite? [00:34:52] Speaker B: Yes. This means not just refraining from negative actions, but actively choosing the positive opposite. [00:34:59] Speaker A: Can you give some examples of these positive opposite actions? [00:35:02] Speaker B: Absolutely. The Source says it means conducting themselves with kindness towards others, even towards those who might have provoked negative feelings in them. It means showing disproportionate love towards others, going above and beyond what might normally be expected. It means being able to suffer greatly from others, maybe from their words, their actions, their mistreatment, without allowing themselves to get angry or upset in a way that impacts their conduct. It means not taking revenge, not even holding a grudge, even if the desire for it arises internally, without active anger. And perhaps most remarkably, the Source states, it means repaying offenders with favor. [00:35:40] Speaker A: Repaying offenders with favors. That goes well. That goes far beyond just not acting on anger or holding grudges. That requires actively doing good for someone who has wronged you. [00:35:49] Speaker B: It does. It's a very high standard. The Source mentions an example from ancient texts urging us to learn from the conduct of Joseph with his brothers. Remember, despite the immense suffering they caused him, when he eventually found himself in a position of power over them, he repaid their terrible actions with great kindness, protection and provision. [00:36:07] Speaker A: Right. [00:36:08] Speaker B: This is presented as the standard for the intermediate person's interactions when faced with mistreatment or when negative feelings towards another person arise internally. [00:36:16] Speaker A: That's a powerful and very concrete illustration of the mind ruling the heart, not just in controlling negative impulses, but in actively choosing and implementing the positive opposite, even under really challenging circumstances. [00:36:30] Speaker B: It shows that the intermediate state isn't solely about, you know, abstinence from wrong or negative conduct. It's fundamentally about proactive positive action and conscious choice dictated by the divine soul and its wisdom. Even when faced with significant internal provocation, like negative emotions arising from the negative inclination or external provocation from others, it's. [00:36:53] Speaker A: Another very tangible manifestation of the mind's ability, guided by the good inclination, to overcome negative impulses originating in the negative inclination and prevent them from reaching expression in thought, speech or deed towards others. [00:37:07] Speaker B: Exactly. [00:37:08] Speaker A: So this definition of the intermediate person, this dynamic of inner struggle consistently overcome by outer perfection and controlled conscious thought, it's consistent across different domains of life, their service to the divine and their interactions with their fellow human beings. [00:37:22] Speaker B: Precisely. The internal mechanism described is the same. The presence of negative potential and desires in the heart, but the consistent absolute victory of the divine soul via the mind's control and will, guided by wisdom in the realm of expression and conscious decision making in all aspects of life. [00:37:41] Speaker A: Okay, this has been an incredibly detailed exploration. Let's move to section 9, summary of the intermediate state. Can we just briefly recap the Key characteristics we've discussed to bring it all together concisely. [00:37:51] Speaker B: Certainly, let's try in terms of practical conduct, their thought, speech and action. The intermediate person is described as perfect. Their behavior is dictated solely by the divine soul and its adherence to divine guidance. They never sin while in this state. [00:38:06] Speaker A: Okay, perfect outward practice. But in their essence, their inner being, their intellect and emotion, the negative inclination still exists. [00:38:15] Speaker B: Right. It's powerful, it's present. And it can and does still arouse desires for worldly things and stir negative emotions towards others, especially after intense spiritual focus subsides. [00:38:25] Speaker A: Right. And the key control mechanism is that the mind rules the heart. We had that powerful analogy, spiritual wisdom. Holiness automatically banishes folly. Evil in terms of expression, like physical light instantly dispels darkness. [00:38:38] Speaker B: But the core negative desire persists internally. It can't gain dominance in outward action or conscious willful thought, but it's still there. [00:38:47] Speaker A: This state requires constant vigilance and effort, not just passive being. [00:38:52] Speaker B: Yes, absolutely. The description is one of constant vigilance, actively keeping desires in check, preventing their practical manifestation in deed or word, and refusing to willingly entertain negative thoughts, to dismissing them instantly when they arise. [00:39:05] Speaker A: Could you offer a final synthesis for us? What does this complex definition of the intermediate person ultimately mean? What's the big picture? [00:39:12] Speaker B: Well, I think the big picture is that the intermediate person isn't someone who feels no struggle or no negative impulses. Far from it. Actually, it's described as a state of constant effort and vigilance in that internal battle between the good and negative inclinations. But crucially, it is a state where the divine soul always wins the battle for action and conscious thought. They consistently prevail over the internal struggle in their outward conduct and deliberate inner choices. And they rely on the innate power of their mind when connected to divine wisdom, even while those underlying negative desires and impulses can still be present and felt emotionally. [00:39:48] Speaker A: So maybe a way to put it is the completely righteous person is someone where the fight is over because the internal opponent is gone or transformed at its root. But the intermediate person is someone who is always winning the fight for control, consistently overcoming the opponent, even though that opponent is still present and active at a core level. [00:40:06] Speaker B: That's an excellent way to phrase it. Based on the Source's definition. It's about consistent conscious overcoming and victory in the realm of expression and will, not the total eradication of the source of potential negativity. You know the aphorism from a later teacher we touched on briefly earlier about different modes of spiritual connection. [00:40:24] Speaker A: Feeling like a student versus A child, right? [00:40:26] Speaker B: Feeling like a student when studying versus feeling like a child before the Creator when praying. It kind of hints at these different ways we engage our soul's powers. When you're studying divine wisdom, you engage your intellect. You master concepts that perhaps relates to the mind's power of ruling the heart we discussed. But when praying with intense focus, you connect with love and awe, reaching a deeper, maybe more unifying state where, as we saw, even the potential for negative desire is temporarily nullified. That reflects the power of those peak moments of elevated focus. [00:40:58] Speaker A: What a rich, challenging, and ultimately, I think, very empowering definition this chapter gives us. It provides a very practical focus for self improvement. Not necessarily waiting to feel perfectly aligned internally all the time, but mastering conscious thought, word and action, consistently choosing the good, even while acknowledging the reality of internal desires and negative impulses. [00:41:22] Speaker B: Indeed, it reframes the goal of spiritual growth, perhaps not necessarily as achieving a state where you never feel a negative impulse, which, let's be honest, may be beyond the reach of most people most of the time, but where you consistently ensure that negative impulse never dictates your conduct, your words, or your willful thought. It's a constant state of active self mastery. [00:41:43] Speaker A: This has been an incredible deep dive into a complex but profoundly insightful chapter of this foundational text. Thank you for guiding us through it with such clarity. [00:41:51] Speaker B: Oh, it's always a privilege to explore these ideas. They offer such precise clarity on the inner workings of the soul, on the nature of our spiritual service. It's quite remarkable. [00:41:59] Speaker A: And thank you to you, our listener, for joining us on this exploration today. Defining the intermediate person as someone who never sins in thought, speech or action while still experiencing powerful negative desires internally. That's certainly a much more nuanced and perhaps demanding standard than just thinking of it as a simple average. [00:42:18] Speaker B: It really highlights that the battle for the intermediate person isn't necessarily for effortless internal peace, but for consistent, unwavering victory in the arena of action and conscious decision making. A victory achieved through dedicated effort powered by the inherent ability of the mind. When guided by divine wisdom and a connection to holiness, it definitely makes you. [00:42:39] Speaker A: Think about your own internal landscape and maybe redefine what intermediate might mean in your own life. [00:42:44] Speaker B: So as a final thought for you to consider, based on the source material we've explored today, the intermediate person isn't defined by the absence of struggle, but by the certainty and consistency of their victory in their external behavior and conscious choices. Considering this demanding yet attainable definition, what does it mean for your own moments of internal conflict? Those times when there's a pull between what a fleeting desire might suggest and what you know is right and true. How does the idea of the mind inherently ruling the heart or a little spiritual light automatically banishing much spiritual darkness in the realm of expression? How might that apply to your daily choices and inner life? And perhaps how might it redefine your own goals for personal and spiritual growth? [00:43:28] Speaker A: Something to really mull over. We hope this Deep Dive gives you new perspective and practical insight. Join us next time on the Deep Dive.