Chapter Eleven: The Wicked Person

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome back, everyone, to the Deep Dive. [00:00:01] Speaker B: Great to be diving in again. [00:00:03] Speaker A: Absolutely. This is where we take the source material you're interested in, really get into it and pull out those key insights. You know, the stuff you really need to understand a topic deeply. [00:00:13] Speaker B: And today we're continuing our journey into, well, a really fascinating look at our internal worlds. We're using some ancient teachings as our guide. [00:00:22] Speaker A: Yeah. A specific piece of text, a really significant one that. That gives us this framework for understanding, I guess you could say, the different states of the inner person. It's quite profound stuff. [00:00:33] Speaker B: It really is. It gets right down to the nuts and bolts of our internal dynamics. [00:00:37] Speaker A: So if you joined us last time, you'll remember we kicked things off by looking at this core idea from the Source, this constant back and forth, this interplay inside each of us between what the text calls the divine soul and the animal soul. [00:00:50] Speaker B: Right. And we establish this isn't just some abstract theory. The Source presents it as a real felt experience. These two sides of our nature are always, you know, vying for control. [00:01:02] Speaker A: Based on that, the Source gave us its definition of a righteous person. [00:01:07] Speaker B: Exactly. Fundamentally, a righteous person, according to this text, is someone where that divine soul, the impulse towards good, is dominant. It's in the driver's seat, basically guiding their thoughts, their words, their actions. [00:01:20] Speaker A: And it wasn't just one type of righteous person, was it? The Source broke it down further. [00:01:25] Speaker B: That's right. Very nuanced. It detailed two distinct levels within that righteous category. [00:01:31] Speaker A: We talked about that top level first. [00:01:32] Speaker B: Yes. The highest level, where the good from the divine soul is so complete, so powerful, it actually transforms the evil from the animal soul. It takes those negative impulses and kind of transmutes them into something positive. [00:01:46] Speaker A: So no trace of the negative is left in their experience. [00:01:48] Speaker B: Exactly. It's converted, gone. A complete internal transformation. An absolute value. Victory for the good, you could say. [00:01:54] Speaker A: Okay, and then there was the second type of righteous person. [00:01:57] Speaker B: Right. And this is the one where the good, the divine soul, still dominates. Make no mistake, good is firmly in charge. But, and this is the key difference a little bit, a vestige of that original negative potential from the animal soul does remain. [00:02:13] Speaker A: It can't do anything precisely. [00:02:14] Speaker B: It's completely nullified. It's there internally, but it's totally subservient to powerless. It has zero ability to express itself negatively. It's like a defeated enemy locked away, totally inert. [00:02:28] Speaker A: Okay, got it. So in both righteous cases, good is fully in command. Today, though, we're flipping the coin. [00:02:33] Speaker B: We are. We're Diving into the definitions, the Source gives for the opposite category, what it calls the wicked person. [00:02:40] Speaker A: Our mission today is to really unpack that. What are the different levels within this classification according to the text? Yeah, we want to understand the insights here about that internal battle when. Well, when the animal soul seems to. [00:02:51] Speaker B: Be winning and what that actually looks like internally and externally, according to this specific framework. [00:02:56] Speaker A: Okay, so let's get into it. The Source starts with a basic contrast, right? A clear line between the righteous and the wicked. [00:03:01] Speaker B: Yes, a fundamental difference based purely on that internal power dynamic we were just talking about. [00:03:06] Speaker A: So if the righteous person is defined by the divine soul overpowering the animal. [00:03:11] Speaker B: Soul, then the wicked person, in direct contrast, is defined by the Source as someone whose animal soul overwhelms their divine soul. [00:03:20] Speaker A: Ah, so it's the same dynamic, just flip. [00:03:22] Speaker B: Exactly. Flipped entirely. The negative impulses, those self serving desires, the pull towards the material, those things coming from the animal soul are dominant. They're running the show internally. [00:03:34] Speaker A: Okay. The negative side has the upper hand. Simple enough as a starting point. But just like with the righteous, the Source doesn't stop there, gives us more detail. [00:03:42] Speaker B: No, it introduces two main classifications, two primary categories of this wicked person. And it uses these ancient ways of describing people, certain expressions. [00:03:52] Speaker A: What are those two categories? [00:03:53] Speaker B: It talks about the wicked person who knows only evil, and the wicked person who knows good. Those are the two big divisions it presents. [00:04:02] Speaker A: And you mentioned the Source draws a connection, a parallel between one of these wicked categories and one of the righteous ones we already discussed. [00:04:09] Speaker B: It does, very explicitly. It positions the wicked person who knows good as the direct opposite, the counterpart to that second type of righteous person. [00:04:18] Speaker A: We talked about, the righteous one who knows evil, the one where good was dominant, but that little bit of evil was still there, just powerless. [00:04:28] Speaker B: Exactly. That one good in charge, but evil still present internally, though inert. Now, here with the wicked person who knows good, it's the mirror image. Evil is in charge, but the good is still present internally. [00:04:41] Speaker A: Ah, okay, so that comparison immediately tells us something important. [00:04:45] Speaker B: It really does. It sets the stage. It shows that the presence and maybe more importantly, the state of that internal good is the key differentiator here. It's not just about whether someone sometimes does bad things. [00:04:56] Speaker A: Right. It tells us that even within this state called wicked, there are fundamentally different inner realities. It's not just a label for behavior. [00:05:04] Speaker B: Precisely. It's about the internal balance, the potential for conflict, the whole inner landscape. [00:05:09] Speaker A: Okay, that's crucial. So let's dig into that first type, the wicked person who knows Good. What's the defining characteristic there, according to the Source? [00:05:18] Speaker B: Well, the core description it gives is that the good part, the aspect coming from their divine soul, is subservient to and nullified within the evil part, the aspect from their animal soul, subservient and. [00:05:31] Speaker A: Nullified within the evil? [00:05:32] Speaker B: Yes. And the Source reminds us, like it did before, about where these forces are sort of located, spiritually speaking. The divine soul, with its potential for good, it connects to the brain, the intellect, and the right side of the heart, representing higher emotions. While the animal soul, especially its impurity, its negative drives, is linked to the left side of the heart, representing more physical desires, baser emotions. [00:05:56] Speaker A: So in this wicked, who knows good state, the stuff from the left side of the heart, the animal soul, has basically overwhelmed the stuff from the brain and the right side. [00:06:04] Speaker B: That's the picture it paints. The evil overpowers the good inside them, so much so that the good in their actual conscious internal experience gets pushed down, made secondary, effectively nullified. [00:06:14] Speaker A: But it's still there. [00:06:15] Speaker B: It's still there. The capacity for holiness, for wisdom, for kindness. It's inherent to the divine soul, but it's just overwhelmed by the sheer force of the animal soul's urges and impulses in that moment, like a whisper drowned out by a loud noise. [00:06:33] Speaker A: So unlike the righteous person, where the good actively cancels out or even transforms the evil, here the evil cancels out the good. But the good itself hasn't, like, disappear. [00:06:43] Speaker B: Correct. It hasn't vanished. It's still part of their makeup, residing in the brain and right heart faculties. But its power to actually influence their thoughts, words, actions, is drastically reduced, Often, yeah, completely suppressed when the animal soul takes over. [00:06:58] Speaker A: Okay, and the Source says, just like with the righteous, who knew evil, that this category, the wicked person who knows good isn't just one thing, it covers a whole range. [00:07:06] Speaker B: Oh, absolutely. A vast spectrum. Countless different degrees fall under this one umbrella term. The state isn't uniform at all. [00:07:13] Speaker A: So how do these levels differ? The Source explains that. [00:07:16] Speaker B: Yes, it details two main ways. These degrees or levels vary from person to person or even within the same person at different times. [00:07:22] Speaker A: Okay, what's the first way? [00:07:23] Speaker B: The first is quantitative. It's about the amount. How much does the evil outweigh the good? Is it just, you know, a slight majority? Evil has to be 51% of the power, or is it overwhelmingly dominant, like vastly stronger, Maybe using an old way of putting it, 60 times stronger than the good. There's a whole scale, right? [00:07:43] Speaker A: Just how much more powerful is the animal soul? Compared to the divine soul in this person's inner life. Life. [00:07:48] Speaker B: Exactly. That's the quantitative difference. The second way they differ is qualitative. Qualitative meaning it's about the type of good being suppressed and the type of evil doing the suppressing. The divine soul has all these potentials, right? Holy feelings, understanding, deep ideas, compassion, awe. And the animal soul has its corresponding negative tendencies. Cravings, anger, pride, jealousy, idle thoughts. The qualitative difference is about which specific aspect of the good is being overpowered by its opposite number from the animal soul. [00:08:20] Speaker A: Ah, I get it. So it's not just how much evil wins, but where it's winning. In one person, maybe their spiritual love gets swamped by physical desires. In another, maybe their desire for truth gets clouded by arrogance or laziness. [00:08:35] Speaker B: Precisely that. It's about the specific spiritual arena where the battle is happening and which side is winning there. This allows for a really fine tuned picture of someone's internal state. [00:08:46] Speaker A: That makes a lot of sense. So these wicked people who know good can be very different from each other. It depends on the amount of dominance and the specific areas affected. Does the Source give examples like what do these different levels actually look like? [00:08:58] Speaker B: It does, and it gets quite specific. It describes someone who's sort of at the better end of this category, maybe closer to the righteous person we discussed. This is someone where the good is only subservient to evil in an exceedingly minor way. [00:09:11] Speaker A: So not all the time. [00:09:12] Speaker B: No, definitely not their constant state. It only happens, the Source says, on infrequent occasions. And even when it does happen, when evil briefly gets the upper hand, the Source uses this metaphor of the body being a small city. And it says, the evil conquers the city, but only part of it, not the whole person, not the entire city. [00:09:31] Speaker A: Like just taking over one neighborhood for a short time? [00:09:34] Speaker B: Exactly like that. And that part that's conquered becomes subservient to the evil. And it acts like a chariot. The Source says, a chariot meaning it's completely controlled by the evil impulse, going wherever the animal soul directs it. And this conquered part serves as a garment for the animal soul to express itself. [00:09:52] Speaker A: Okay, garments. We talked about this for the righteous person too. Remind us what the Source means by garments of the soul. [00:09:59] Speaker B: Right. The garments are the soul's means of expression and interaction with the world. Thought, speech and action. These are the tools the soul uses, whether it's a divine soul expressing goodness or the animal soul expressing negativity. [00:10:13] Speaker A: So when a part of the body becomes a garment for the animal soul. [00:10:16] Speaker B: It Means that part maybe the mind for thoughts, the mouth for speech, the hands for action, is being used to manifest the animal soul's negative inclination through a negative thought or forbidden speech or a wrong action. [00:10:28] Speaker A: Got it. Thought, speech, action. But for this person, the one where evil's influence is minor and infrequent, the Source stresses that even the kind of wrongdoing is limited. [00:10:39] Speaker B: Yes. This is a key detail showing how minor the evil's hold is here. If it manifests an action, it's only minor transgressions, small stuff, not major sins. The animal soul in this person just doesn't have the deep seated power to push them into really serious wrongdoing. And in speech, if it's speech, it's described as just uttering something that borders on negativity. Like maybe some slightly careless talk, maybe bordering on gossip or light mockery, but not actual slander or really harmful speech. [00:11:10] Speaker A: Okay. And in thought, you mentioned the Source focuses on that. [00:11:13] Speaker B: It does. It gives thought special attention. It's limited here to contemplations of sin just thinking about it. [00:11:18] Speaker A: Why the focus on thought? Does the Source explain why dwelling on something negative in thought is considered significant? Maybe even more so than a small action? [00:11:26] Speaker B: Yeah. It suggests that thought is incredibly close to the soul's essence. Speech and action are more external. Right. They use the physical body, but thought happens right there in the mind, which is like the soul's inner chamber. So letting evil express itself in thought can be seen as a deeper kind of infiltration. It pollutes the inner sanctum, so to speak. [00:11:48] Speaker A: That's interesting. We often think actions are the main thing. [00:11:50] Speaker B: Well, this perspective emphasizes the inner state. The Source gives an example. Contemplating physical union in a way that's not, you know, for a holy purpose, even if you don't plan to act on it. The text says this violates a teaching to guard yourself from every wicked thing. The idea is that just letting your mind dwell on impurity causes a kind of spiritual contamination. [00:12:12] Speaker A: How so? The thought itself can be a violation because it pollutes the mind. [00:12:15] Speaker B: That's the idea presented. It gives another example too. Letting your mind wander off into inane matters, trivial stuff, when it's actually a good time for spiritual self study or reflection. [00:12:25] Speaker A: Like scrolling on your phone instead of praying or learning. [00:12:28] Speaker B: Kind of like that. Yeah. It quotes another ancient teaching about someone who wakes up at night, often seen as a prime time for spiritual connection, and turns his heart to vanity. That person is considered guilty against his own soul. [00:12:42] Speaker A: Guilty against his soul for thinking about. [00:12:43] Speaker B: Unimportant things, because they're wasting a precious opportunity for growth, letting the animal soul's tendency towards distraction or laziness take over their mental space. In both these cases, the impure thoughts or the trivial ones, the animal soul's thought garment has taken control of that part of the small city, the mind. [00:13:02] Speaker A: Okay, so for this person at the mild end of the wicked, who knows good category, when they have one of these minor lapses, a small action, careless words, negative thoughts, the Source says they're called wicked. Right. [00:13:13] Speaker B: Then, yes, at that time. It's a description of the spiritual reality of that specific moment. The term wicked here just signifies that, yes, in that instant, the evil from their animal soul did prevail. It used a part of them, a garment to sin. And that act defiles that garment, that faculty. [00:13:31] Speaker A: But you said it's not permanent for them what happens next, Right? [00:13:34] Speaker B: This is crucial for this type. The Source is very clear. After the transgression, even a small one, the good within their divine soul quickly asserts itself. It wasn't destroyed, just momentarily pushed aside. And then they feel remorse, genuine regret for what they did or said or thought, even if it was minor. And because they feel that remorse, they naturally want to seek pardon to find forgiveness. [00:14:00] Speaker A: And forgiveness is possible. The Source says they can be pardoned? [00:14:03] Speaker B: Oh, absolutely. If they repent properly. You know, following the guidance from ancient teachers on how to do that, they can definitely be pardoned. The Source even hints at the different ways pardon works, referencing other texts. [00:14:14] Speaker A: Can you elaborate on that? Different ways of being pardoned? [00:14:17] Speaker B: Yeah. It briefly touches on how the path to forgiveness might vary depending on what exactly was done wrong. It alludes to three general levels discussed in the tradition for failing to do something positive, like a good deed you were supposed to do. Some teachings say sincere repentance itself brings immediate pardon. It resets the intention. [00:14:36] Speaker A: Makes sense. [00:14:37] Speaker B: For actively doing something forbidden, repentance is still key. But often the day of atonement, that special time for communal and personal reflection, is needed to fully seal the pardon suggests crossing a line, requires a bit more. And then for really serious stuff, things carrying heavy spiritual consequences, well, repentance and the day of atonement start the process. But sometimes, according to these teachings, going through hardship or suffering might be part of the atonement needed to fully mend the spiritual damage. [00:15:08] Speaker A: Wow. Okay, so even forgiveness has levels depending on the severity. [00:15:12] Speaker B: Exactly. It shows a really nuanced understanding of spiritual cause and effect. But the main point here for the wicked, who knows good, is that pardon is achievable for their lapses. Because they do repent, that remorse shows the good is still kicking inside them. [00:15:25] Speaker A: Okay, so we slip up, feel bad, repent, get pardoned. But you mentioned the Source makes a really important point about the term wicked itself. Yeah, it's not just about being forgiven for a specific act. [00:15:36] Speaker B: This is so important for understanding this whole system. The Source explains that, yes, repentance brings pardon for the sin. It clears the slate for that particular act. But the person is still classified as wicked in what the Source calls the true sex sense of the word. [00:15:51] Speaker A: The true sense, what does that mean? [00:15:52] Speaker B: The true sense of righteous or wicked here describes the fundamental quality of the soul. It's about which force, good or evil, is structurally dominant in their inner life. So even after being forgiven for that minor slip up, they're still wicked in this deeper sense because the underlying tendency is still there. [00:16:09] Speaker A: Ah, the animal soul still has the potential to overpower the good sometimes. [00:16:14] Speaker B: Exactly. Their animal soul retains that inherent capacity to occasionally dominate and cause them to see sin, Even if it's rare and minor, the good, while active enough for remorse, isn't consistently structurally dominant over the evil. [00:16:27] Speaker A: I see. So wicked in this deep sense describes the soul's basic internal setup, its predisposition, not just its current rap sheet or behavioral score. [00:16:37] Speaker B: Perfectly put, it's about the structure of the soul's inner government. The Source even acknowledges that for purposes of reward and punishment, someone like this, mostly good deeds, rare, minor sins, quickly repented, might be considered righteous in a borrowed sense. Their merits outweigh their demerits. [00:16:57] Speaker A: But that's a different use of the word, Right? [00:16:59] Speaker B: That's about judgment, accounting the core classification based on the soul's quality. And the underlying power structure remains wicked because the evil can still win sometimes. It's a really key distinction. [00:17:11] Speaker A: That is a deep point. You could be doing mostly good, forgiven for lapses, but still be wicked at the core. Because the potential for the animal soul to take over remains, really highlights the focus on the inner state. [00:17:23] Speaker B: Okay, so that covers the milder end of the wicked person who knows good. What about the other end of that spectrum, where evil is stronger? [00:17:30] Speaker A: Right. The Source then describes people within the same category, wicked, who knows good. But where the evil prevails more strongly. Here, the animal soul's dominance is much more pronounced, more consistent. [00:17:41] Speaker B: How does that show up? Well, the evil uses all three garments, thought, speech, and action, for wrongdoing, not just one or in limited ways. And they commit more heinous sins, more serious stuff. And they do it more frequently than the first type. [00:17:56] Speaker A: Okay, so more serious, more frequent, involving thought, speech and action. But they're still called wicked. Who knows good? How can that be if they're sinning so much more? [00:18:07] Speaker B: This is where that knows good part is absolutely critical. According to the Source, the defining factor that keeps them in this category, even with serious and frequent sin, is what happens between the sins. [00:18:17] Speaker A: And what happens then? [00:18:18] Speaker B: They still feel remorse. Thoughts of a pentance still manage to surface. They experience that inner pull of regret, that guilt. [00:18:26] Speaker A: But where does that come from if evil is so strong in them? [00:18:29] Speaker B: It comes from the good. The good from the divine soul that still lingers inside them even though it's overpowered when they're actually sinning. The Source says it manages to gather a degree of strength in the interim, in those moments between falling prey to temptation. [00:18:42] Speaker A: Like a little stark that gets smothered often, but still glows sometimes. [00:18:46] Speaker B: That's a good way to put it. So they give in. They sin, maybe badly and often, but afterwards they feel bad about it. And that feeling bad is the proof the good hasn't been totally extinguished inside. [00:18:57] Speaker A: Okay, that internal pain that regret shows, the divine soul is still present, still fighting back in some way. [00:19:05] Speaker B: Exactly. But. And here's the tragedy of this state, the Source notes the limitation. The good is there. It causes remorse, but it does not strengthen itself sufficiently to vanquish the evil. It's not strong enough. Or maybe they don't know how to harness it well enough to actually stop sinning, to reach that point of confess and abandon their negative ways for good. [00:19:27] Speaker A: So they're trapped. They feel bad, maybe want to change, but the evil keeps winning. The remorse doesn't lead to lasting change. [00:19:33] Speaker B: That's the struggle described. And the Source brings in that ancient teaching. The wicked are full of remorse. [00:19:38] Speaker A: Full of remorse, yeah. [00:19:40] Speaker B: Which can mean they feel it between sins, knowing what they did was wrong. Or maybe even more painfully, they feel it while sinning, that inner conflict, the good protesting even as they div in. But they feel powerless against the desire at that moment. It's an ongoing internal war, even if evil usually wins the battles. [00:19:58] Speaker A: And the Source says this state frequent serious sin, but with remorse, is common. [00:20:04] Speaker B: It identifies these people as the majority of the wicked. That's significant. It suggests the most typical wicked person in this framework isn't someone totally cold and unfeeling, but someone locked in this losing struggle. Evil dominates, yes, but the good is still alive enough to cause that inner pain, that regret, those fleeting thoughts of repentance. [00:20:24] Speaker A: So the defining feature of the Wicked person who knows good across its whole range. Is this internal conflict fueled by the remaining good? [00:20:31] Speaker B: Exactly. Whether the lapses are tiny and rare, or serious and frequent, the common thread is evil is dominant, but the good is still internally present and active enough to cause conflict and remorse. That's what contrasts them with the righteous who knows evil, where good dominates the inner evil. [00:20:47] Speaker A: Wow. Okay. That paints a really detailed picture of the wicked person who knows good. A whole spectrum defined by that internal struggle and the presence of regret. Now, what about the other main category, the wicked person who knows only evil? Just the name sounds darker. [00:21:07] Speaker B: It does, and the description is stark. This person, the Source says, never feels contrition, thoughts of repentance. They at all ever enter their mind. 0. The inner landscape is just spiritually flat, maybe, or even actively hostile to good, with no voice of regret whispering inside. [00:21:22] Speaker A: Why? What happened to the good in them? What's the inner state that leads to that total lack of remorse? [00:21:28] Speaker B: According to the Source, it's because only the evil from the animal soul has remained as the active internal force within them. The evil has become so overwhelmingly dominant that the good from the divine soul has effectively departed from within him. [00:21:41] Speaker A: Departed as in gone? Completely annihilated? [00:21:44] Speaker B: No. And this is a really subtle but crucial point in the teaching. The Source says the good still exists, but its relationship to the person's consciousness has totally changed. [00:21:52] Speaker A: How so? [00:21:53] Speaker B: It exists in what the Source calls an encompassing or external way. It uses this imagery like the good is hovering over him, so to speak, in an aloof and external manner, so that he has no conscious awareness of. [00:22:06] Speaker A: It hovering over him. External? That's hard to picture. [00:22:10] Speaker B: It is. It means the good is no longer an internal, active felt force shaping their thoughts or feelings. It's not inside their conscious experience. It's like imagine a protective field of around someone that they aren't aware of. The potential for connection is there, but it's outside their inner world. It doesn't provide internal light or warmth. [00:22:29] Speaker A: So the evil has won, so completely inside that it's pushed the good right out of the person's conscious awareness. The internal battle is just over. [00:22:38] Speaker B: That's the idea. Evil achieved total internal victory. The good is still linked to their soul's essence fundamentally, but it's not an active player within their moment to moment life. It's encompassing, surrounding them rather than residing in their felt experience. [00:22:53] Speaker A: And that's why there's no remorse. The source of remorse, the internal good, isn't operating inside anymore. [00:22:59] Speaker B: Precisely. Their internal world is run solely by the Animal soul's drives, without that counterforce of the divine soul making itself felt. That's the wicked person who knows only evil. [00:23:11] Speaker A: And the source uses a story, an anecdote about ancient teachers to illustrate this state, especially this idea of the encompassing good that's still somehow connected. [00:23:22] Speaker B: Yes, a really interesting story to shed light on how this external encompassing connection works. It involves a skeptic questioning a wise teacher. [00:23:31] Speaker A: Okay. [00:23:31] Speaker B: The skeptic was looking at an ancient book when connected to a time when a very harsh decree was issued against the Jews. He noticed that the word for Jews was sometimes spelled with an extra letter in that book, specifically around the time of this decree. And this extra letter had a numerical value of 10. [00:23:46] Speaker A: An extra letter value 10 during a bad time. What did the teacher say it meant? [00:23:51] Speaker B: The teacher explained that the letter 10 represents the 10 core powers or faculties of the soul. He said there were traditionally two types of people. Some, the truly righteous live mainly by the 10 powers of their divine soul, represented by the normal spelling. But others, where the animal soul was dominant, were influenced by its 10 negative powers, as well as they were represented by the spelling, with the extra letter 10 signifying the anima soul's 10 powers layered on top, if you will. The villain who made the decree, the teacher said, wanted to destroy both types, the righteous and those dominated by the animal soul's influence. [00:24:27] Speaker A: Okay, that explains the spelling. During the decree representing the two types the villain targeted. But the skeptic had another question. [00:24:34] Speaker B: He did. He asked, okay, but why is the word still spelled that way with the extra letter after the decree was canceled and the people were saved? If it was just about the two types during the threat, why keep the spelling good? [00:24:46] Speaker A: Question. What was the answer? [00:24:47] Speaker B: The teacher replied that after going through that suffering and then witnessing the amazing salvation, even those who had been ruled by evil, those represented by the extra letter, they repented. They had a profound change of heart, and through that repentance, they became spiritually equal to their brothers and sisters who had always followed the divine soul. So, the teacher concluded, the two types became one, united in their return to good. The spelling remained, perhaps as a reminder of that unity achieved through repentance. [00:25:19] Speaker A: That's a powerful story about transformation. But how does the source connect the story specifically to the wicked person who knows only evil, the one with no internal remorse? [00:25:32] Speaker B: It uses the story, and especially the idea of those who repented to illustrate the concept of the external, encompassing good that still exists, even for someone whose internal good seems gone. It links it to another core teaching that the Divine Presence, this manifest spiritual light rests over any gathering of ten Jews who come together for a good purpose. [00:25:51] Speaker A: Okay, a gathering of ten attracts this presence. [00:25:54] Speaker B: Right? But then the Source makes this really striking claim. This applies Even if all 10 people in the gathering are in the category of the wicked person who knows only evil. [00:26:02] Speaker A: Wow. Even a group where everyone is internally dominated by evil with no remorse, how could the Divine Presence rest there? [00:26:09] Speaker B: Because, the Source explains, even those individuals still possess good in a manner of encompassing. Remember that external hovering good and the Divine Presence, when it comes to a group of 10, also manifests in an externally encompassing way. It's not necessarily flooding the inner consciousness of every single person, especially not the wicked who knows only evil. So since the Presence is external and encompassing, and their good is also external and encompassing, there's a match. Their external level of good is sufficient to receive that external manifestation of the Divine Presence. [00:26:44] Speaker A: So even if they feel nothing inside, no pull towards good, that fundamental smart, that encompassing good connected to their soul's essence, is still there. And it's enough to connect with an external spiritual reality. [00:26:56] Speaker B: That's exactly the point the Source is illustrating. Even in the state described as the most deeply wicked, internally, where the conscience is silent, a connection to goodness, to the divine soul's root still exists. It's just operating on that external, encompassing level, not an internal, conscious one. The story shows that potential for connection is never truly completely severed. [00:27:14] Speaker A: That really rounds out the picture. We've gone from the heights of righteousness down through this complex spectrum of wickedness. [00:27:21] Speaker B: Yeah, it's quite a map of the inner world, from the righteous completely transforming evil to the righteous, where good dominates inert evil. [00:27:30] Speaker A: Then through all those levels of the wicked person, who knows good where evil dominates. But that internal battle, the remorse, is. [00:27:37] Speaker B: Still happening all the way to the wicked person who knows only evil, where evil has won. Internally, good is pushed outwards, encompassing. And there's no inner regret because the good isn't active inside. [00:27:48] Speaker A: And we need to keep remembering. Like you said, this is all about describing the deep internal dynamics, the quality of the soul's state, its structure. It's different from just labeling behavior or calculating rewards. Though obviously related, the focus is squarely on that inner reality. [00:28:04] Speaker B: It's a framework for understanding the soul itself. [00:28:06] Speaker A: Okay, this has been incredibly detailed, so let's bring it home. Why does this ancient system, these intricate definitions of wickedness, actually matter to us today? To you listening right now, what's the relevance? [00:28:19] Speaker B: Well, I think it offers a really insightful, maybe even compassionate way to understand the struggles we all face internally and the struggles we see in others. We all have times when different parts of us are pulling in different directions. This framework says, yeah, that conflict is real and it's complex. It has layers. [00:28:35] Speaker A: It's definitely not just good guys and bad guys. [00:28:37] Speaker B: Not at all. And recognizing those descriptions of the wicked person who knows good? Especially the milder end, you know, the minor lapse, the careless word, the negative thought we entertain too long. It helps us identify those moments in. [00:28:51] Speaker A: Ourselves when the animal's soul just gets a little win. [00:28:53] Speaker B: Exactly. And it normalizes it in a way. It shows this struggle is part of the human condition, even for people trying hard to be good. But crucially, it highlights the reaction, the remorse. Yes, it emphasizes how vital that feeling of remorse is, that regret after we slip up. The Source frames it as a positive sign. It's proof that the good inside you is still active, still fighting, still alive. It means you haven't sunk into that state of apathy where you feel nothing. That pang of regret is spiritual life. [00:29:23] Speaker A: So feeling bad after doing wrong is actually good news in this context. [00:29:28] Speaker B: It's evidence that you're still in the game, spiritually speaking. It shows you're firmly in that category of the wicked who knows good. The good is present and protesting, even if it lost that round. [00:29:38] Speaker A: Okay, and what about the other end, the wicked who knows only evil? And that idea of encompassing good, what's the takeaway there? [00:29:46] Speaker B: That offers something else, maybe more profound. It gives a perspective on connection, even when someone seems totally unreachable, completely dominated by negativity, showing zero remorse. [00:29:57] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:29:57] Speaker B: The idea that goodness or the divine presence is still there in an encompassing way, never fully leaves the soul's essence. It suggests that maybe, just maybe, the door is never fully closed. That hope for connection, for change, even if it has to start from an external point, might always exist on some level. [00:30:16] Speaker A: Like the fundamental. Goodness can't be totally erased, just hidden from view. [00:30:19] Speaker B: Exactly. Hidden from conscious view, pushed to the outside, but still intrinsically there. It suggests an inherent, indestructible core of goodness or potential connection in everyone. [00:30:30] Speaker A: That's a very hopeful thought, actually. Even in the face of profound internal darkness described by the Source. [00:30:35] Speaker B: It is. It implies that the connection might be obscured, but perhaps never entirely broken. [00:30:40] Speaker A: This has been fascinating, really, unpacking these layers of internal experience from the nuanced struggles and vital role of remorse in the wicked who knows good to the stark internal picture and yet enduring external connection of the wicked who knows only evil. This ancient text offers such a complex. [00:30:59] Speaker B: View, it certainly gives us a lot to reflect on. About ourselves, about others, about the nature of that inner battle. [00:31:04] Speaker A: Absolutely. So, as we wrap up this deep dive, here's that final thought for you to chew on, building directly on this last point about encompassing good if these ancient teachings suggest that goodness never truly leaves the soul, even in the deepest state called wicked, but remains encompassing it externally, what does that imply about the fundamental nature of every single person? Does it mean there's always an inherent, maybe unconscious, potential for connection, a spark waiting, regardless of how disconnected someone seems internally or acts externally? [00:31:35] Speaker B: Something to definitely ponder until next time.